GN: In Darwin there isn’t any music and sound effects. Yet in Kisangany Diary, you use this effect that I like, which is quite artificial and usually used in horrow films, it’s the use of infra-bass sound. There are lots of sequences where aside from the music, you have this infra-bass going “ououou”. It creates this feeling of fear, which is presumably the true feeling you would have in such a place, because the military forces are not far away, because you have people being eaten away by sickness, and then you feel this sort of uneasiness, and it’s this artifice, almost fictional, but it works really well. In the same way, you can do things in color or black and white — Black and white tends to be more dramatic, but with this sound thing, it is as you you were underlining part, as if you were saying these are the parts where you should feel scared. HS: The use of black and white was not about dramatisation, it was rather a technical issue. The tapes were so fucked that I need to take the color out. Yet the use of bass and music in the film, when I see it today, I think it is a bit much. A lot of people have critisized me for this, but I do understand. I was looking for a very direct way to express this extremely deep sense of anxiety, so I looked to push the form really far. In this regard, I take responsibility for my choice. To tranfer what is lived or the anxiety, the state of being, is also an essential element of documentary film making. It might be this as well that separates this sort of film from other documentaries, because their goal is to

represent a true reality, a story as truly as possible. I can show the reality of an airport by showing the flies on the window panes, since the flies represent this sort of strange unspoken element. Actually, they are much more truthful than some kind of numbers showing the time it takes the Kalashnikovs to be transferred within the airport. I have been critisized at times for not showing certain things, it had not been understood. Too bad. GN: With an agressive film, you will get aggressive reactions. Darwin is extremely aggressive, and frankly, I am very pleased that it is able to do so well commercially. JWD: It seems that whether it is about truth or lies, the need to manipulate, choose, cut, or reformat still exists. HS: There are two kinds of lies when it comes to documentaries: the real lie and the poetic lie. In Kisangany for instance, there is a poetic lie, it is at the beginning of the film when we go through the forest by train. This really did happen, except that I was unable to film as the military had confiscated my equipment. I filmed the return journey of the train and inversed it: in the film it is the arrival. I can handle this. The jungle is the same. It would be a real lie if I said: here these are the indians, when they are not. In a film, at an emotional moment, you can say anything and everyone will believe you. These are little manipulations that all documentary makers have a tendency to do. I can film the head of a company in Rwanda, and want to put a plastic fish in his office to

make it a funny scene. But if I do that, I am lying. GN: There are a lot of documentaries where you see people walking and you have the feeling that there are so many angles, like the camera had been moved, and that they must have asked the guy, “look, now you walk forward, now back.” Then you had this guy repeat the move several times to get this kind of cinematographic cutting. In the end it works, but it’s a little strange, because you have these notions of directing as you can see that the guy must have repeated his steps 4 or 5 times, so that it feels normal and the entire sequence is covered. Is this cheating or not? You play with the guy and he becomes an actor? HS: That’s something that I do not do, yet it is a sort of set up that is not cheating, since the guy is actually walking in reality. It is just usually poorly set up. The guy isn’t completely at ease walking anymore. Here I was with the man in his office and I say to him: “It is a nice fish, what do you think of turning it on?” That’s what I said to him. And it is not just luck that the fish worked. In the part with all the skeletons, there’s a guy with a skeleton on his t-shirt. If I came there with this skeleton t-shirt and asked him to put it on, I would be a liar. No one aside from me would have known, but in doing that, I would have taken energy out of the film, that’s for sure. Yet if I capture the scene, then I have captured a particularly strong absurd moment, and this gives me the energy to aim for that. There’s also the prostitute singing with the

Russian: I wasn’t there by accident, filming them when they were singing together. I knew the Russian, I knew the prostitute, we would drink together, I would buy them beers, and I knew that this girl could sing, so I asked if she might want to sing something for us, and then the situation created itself and it was authentic. I don’t pretend not to be there, invisible. You hear my voice and you see how the camera is moving, as if I were drunk too, it was a little blurry. It became authentic as well because of this. If you begin to lie to yourself, be it on film or in real life, all is lost, you betray yourself. GN: Do you know the film Isle of Flowers (Jorge Furtado, 1989)? It is this very arty, funny, and very mean Brazilian short film. A film about garbage, a garbage island in Brazil, with these kids from the shanty towns that come to eat the leftovers that the pigs have not eaten. Because you can sell pigs and unfortunately, you cannot sell kids. Then afterwards there is this whole

lecture on the fact that the pigs get to eat first because you can sell them, yet you can’t do this trade with children. In regards to the cynicism of business, there are common points with Darwin. Except it is more condensed. This film has made it all around the world. HS: One last thing. People often ask me if the people in the film have had a chance to see the film. This is something that I started in late 2005. I went to Tanzania earlier this year to meet them again and show them the film. I will go to the Ukrain as well in this little plane that I fly myself, sitting on the outside. I will be landing on the runway where you can find these big guys from the film. It will be another film, to confront these Russians with their image, to see how it all goes. It is a necessary continuation, as I want to know the reactions of people that play a role in the film. Also to gain a better understanding of this type of work for the future. I am not expecting for anything that’s

necessarily romantic or consentual. It would be nice if the Russians saw this as a work of art, and that they would like to participate in something important like this, yet they could very well become angry. I hope for the first option. GN: When you make a fiction film, and you are paying people like this, and they don’t really know the storyline of the film. On Irreversible, some of them assumed that the film was too violent, and they’d wish to remove their image from the film when it is already too late. Then it depends on what the people around them are saying. When it is a documentary, and the guy is actually exposing himself, because he is saying things that maybe he shouldn’t be saying, in effect it could be a bit of a problem showing it to them. HS: But it is a true adventure, not the Camel Trophy.